Propulsion: Outboard, inboard, I-O?
Here's a boating topic with room for general & specific
observations, theory, opinion, fact, sea stories. Let's see it.Why would you choose one type of propulsion over another? Fair Skies
Doug King |
DSK
Jan 25
2006
|
| The difference was the Ficht customers already had a court decision so
they got dealt with by Bombardier as part of the bankruptsy. The folks
who were still dealing with the OMC warranty department, getting
gurantees of a new engine to shut them up, got screwed. Bombardier did
not get any liability for those engines in the settlement and they
never stepped up. The neighbor with the 40 was riding the "gurantee
of a new motor" papers up to about #98 on the list when they decided
he was in the wrong line, this was warranty and go stand over there.
His lawyer says he will get about $50 if they ever give him a dime. |
gfretwell
Jan 26
|
| They sure threw the Evinrude/Suzuki midrange customers under the bus.
My neighbor is still waiting for some kind of resolution on his
lawsuit on a defective 40 and the other neighbor with a blown up 70
just gave up and bought a merc.. |
gfretwell
Jan 26
|
| i dont know the circumstances of either of your friends cases, but i
can say in my case with an 2000 omc ficht they were more than
accommodating and it didn't cost me a dime. i do know there was a cut off and some more disreputable dealers took
advantage of some customers with it. other than that, i can't say. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
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| I could never quite get a good handle on maneuvering a single screw inboard. |
Jan 26
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| Attack cows next door? |
Calif
Jan 26
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| a hunter 45c to the right, hatteras 52 to the right, viking 50
something in front and a 12 foot cememt wall behind. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
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| --
Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it. |
Reggie
Jan 26
|
|
I can only relate my experiences with two cycle and two cycle Optimax
outboards. None ever presented any problems at trolling speeds. Further, when I was a kid summering on the edge of LI Sound, we trolled
for stripers for hours at a time with two cycle outboards. |
Harry
Jan 26
|
| When looking at them on the Evinrude site, and reading about their
dependability, I was surprised that the warranty was for only three years.
It would seem like Evinrude could help their sales a bunch by putting out a
five year warranty, given all the claims they make.
--
John H ***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
|
JohnH
Jan 26
|
| Helpful because until now I'd not considered a difference in capabilities
at trolling speeds. I'd be interested in comparing differences with the new
engines, not the older ones.
--
John H ***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
|
JohnH
Jan 26
|
|
If you have a new Grady in mind, Tri-State will talk you into a
four-stroke Yamaha. It's the right choice. There is nothing wrong with
the two-stroke Yamahas in the high horse range, and they idle nicely,
but the four-strokes are quieter at idle and don't "burn" any
significant amounts of oil while trolling. The price differential is
close to zip and so is the weight differential. |
Harry
Jan 26
|
| The mfg'er did concede there were some problems (I read about 20% of the
engines had the problem to varying degrees) with oil/gas ratio as the
slower speeds. The old outlawed polluting 2 stroke used a oil
pre-mixture high enough that the engine was properly lubed at the slower
speeds. I remember reading someone in here used to say he premixed his
oil enough that it would smoke, then he knew it was protected. Too bad
all the fish in his area died.
|
Reggie
Jan 26
|
| Don't get too confident. Guys who steal outboards know how to do it. |
gfretwell
Jan 26
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| If you go fast all the time, 2 stroke is probably the way to go but if
you do a lot of "slow" 4 strokes still have the edge.
I notice all the commercial guys running in the Estero River (30-50')
pontoon boats) use 4 strokes. |
gfretwell
Jan 26
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| ain't gonna happen. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
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| theyd have a hell of a time stealing the boat too. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
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| In theory, two strokes should be almost twice as efficient.
In practice, they still aren't...
It's worth noticing what they guys who do it for a living
are using. But I have an ulterior motive in this thread, I am
considering buying a boat this spring (in fact I have an
offer on the table right now) and if the new 2-stroke
technology is really good, I'd like to try it out. I have
some experience with a small 4 stroke and it was OK. OTOH one of the boats I'm strongly considering is the
traditional inboard diesel... tried & true! Fair Skies
Doug King |
DSK
Jan 26
|
| --
Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it. |
Reggie
Jan 26
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| not quite - but a 40% increase in efficiency is ok in my book.
there you go. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
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| its more a difference in philosophy and engineering tolerances than
complete differences. etec is essentially ficht technology, but
re-engineered, the way the emm handles the ignitiion is more
efficient, the coding is more elegant, new injectors, new cylinder
metal tech, better tolerances, new lubricants - think more, bigger,
betterrer. interesting that the injectors are being made in australia. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
|
| Is your preference in the ETec vs 4 stroke based upon a power to weight
ratio or are there other benefits?
|
Reggie
Jan 26
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| brand loyalty is part of it. i liked the way bombardier handled the
ficht situation by admitting there was a problem, then fixing it. they
saw the potential of ficht and redesigned/reengineered it to make it
right. plus i like new technology risks that pay off. etec has almost
everything over four stroke. there is nothing wrong with four stroke
technology, but its not as efficient, weighs more and flat out hands
down etecs out perform any other outboard on the market today. not to mention the outstanding emissions figures. there is a couple in my marina that has a regulator which is very
similar to my contender. they have twin 250 yamaha four stroke on
theirs. my boat has a bettter top end, better hole shot, better
accelleration and i weigh more plus giving away 50 horsepower. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
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| Now *there's* a helpful comment, especially for one who does a lot of
spring trolling.
--
John H ***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
|
JohnH
Jan 26
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|
Why is it helpful? When I lived in Florida, I used to run my 90hp and then 115hp two-stroke
Merc for hours and hours at trolling speeds without any problems. My
Optimax Merc also ran nicely at trolling speeds. An awful lot of time in this newsgroup is spent splitting hairs. |
Harry
Jan 26
|
| I like io's because they off a rear mounted engine and clean stern. For
they type of boating I do on freshwater lakes in runabouts and my cuddy
they good choice. Also they don't have a lot of noise unless you have
load exhaust. They also handel pretty well. So far with running merc's
since my dads frist runabout - A 70 Beachcraft trihull, Our family and
my own personal boats have had excellent service with these io's. The
auto developed engines are very reliable. But I can see lots of good reason to use outboats depending on the boat
and wants of the boater. Easier to winterize, better power to weight
ratio. But shorter production runs on specialized power heads can equal
higher cost overall. I have 71 7.5 merc that needed coils and a stator a
few years ago and they were pretty expensive. But I decided after 30
years of good service it was worth it to me to get it rebuilt I only had driven one true inboat boat. My brothers purchased a Toyota
ski boat that i guy was selling pretty cheap. The thing leaps on plane
and is great for it's intended usage. But I found did not answer the
helm at all when backing down and just cut to port. It could have been
in part to my lack of experiance. But I never did get it to back up
where I wanted it to go. :-) So to me I guess the bottom line is it just depends on ones own application. Capt Jack R.. |
Jack
Jan 26
|
| ??? It's possible to steal anything. Are you saying that your engine is not a target because it
is too heavy and difficult to remove? That negates one of
the benefits of it being an outboard. > .... now ill grant you that lower units are a
> seperate issue and i remove the lower units from all my outboards. That sounds very convenient. Actually, I was thinking of smaller outboards anyway. Fair Skies- Doug King |
DSK
Jan 25
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| the later. they would literally have to saw off the transom to get
them and thats just not practical. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
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| >Why would you choose one type of propulsion over another? Somewhere around 200 hp the power per $$$ ratio begins to favor
inboards or I/O. I/Os typically have more speed than comparable
inboards but maintenance costs tend to be higher, and I/Os really need
to be stored out of the water for decent longevity. I/Os and
outboards are both favored in shallow water areas because they
typically need less depth, and prop replacement is easier and cheaper.
Inboards and I/Os have traditionally offered better fuel economy but
that may be changing with better OB technology. |
Wayne.B
Jan 25
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| If it's worth money, it's worth stealing. DSK |
DSK
Jan 25
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| You're being modest again Tom:-) you bought them so they'd never be
stolen??? have you forgotten to mention their best deterrent to theft??
they're E-Tecs!!! If they're stolen you're looking for a thief who can't read the name on
them or some other desperate E-Tec victim hoping to get a part that
still works:-) K |
K.
|
|
Gee Tom, so your arm is much better I see:-) or did you let the other
one go for a minute??? The only manufacturer still trying to make 2 stroke OBs is the new
French kid who got it as a bequeath from Bombardier who got it at the
OMC bankruptcy auction great pedigree yes??? (talk about couldn't give
it away). Using the failed technology of Ficht which was so
comprehensively shown to be faulty that it brought an American icon Co down. The so called changes, apart from dumping the name Ficht of course, are
only to deal with the symptoms of the problem & don't in any manner
address the core issue, which I say is; too low an injection pressure,
the fuel is not sufficiently atomised, the mixture is deliberately & EPA
necessarily extremely lean at low to medium revs, the lubrication is
very risky & they've yet to be shown to be anything other than an
elcheapo attempt to rip people off with more Ficht. Their so called "improvements" absolutely confirm the case against them; (i) "Special" high melting temp alloy for the pistons why??? because the
poorly atomised lean fuel creates excessive heat in the pistons & when
they looked at dead Fichts amateur (see more French:-)) like they though
hey we know we'll make the pistons higher melting point!!! What a
joke!!! Long long before even the lowest of tech aluminium alloys even
looks like getting too hot the engine is in terminal detonation caused
by excess heat. (ii) "Special" treated bores why??? again see (i) these idiots saw
damaged bores after almost certain detonation failures & again figured
OK we'll make the bores tougher!!! What a joke!!!. (iii) New plumbing why???? Well maybe because the USCG made Bombardier
when they owned it, do a safety recall of Fichts because the vibration
of detonation was allowing the pressurised fuel supply to leak & fire
was a risk??, of course the same detonation was blowing injectors out of
the heads!!! Seriously given that injectors seem to stay in diesel cyl
heads?? ask yourself what the f ...is going on in there???
Again the same hmmmmmmmmmmmmm lets just make it stronger so it might
stay they more often????? What a joke!!! (iv) Special dealer only oil is optionally "recommended" why???? Is it
because the normal oil can't stand up too the excess heat generated by
the combo of poor atomisation & lean mixture so gets baked behind the
rings etc???? Have they even further reduced the amounts of oil??? It
seems like the same thinking as i, ii & iii so gee lets see we have an
oil baking problem how can we reduce that ???? Hey lets just reduce the
oil!!!! What a joke!!!!! Already these engines are sounding just like Ficht, lots of software
"upgrades" & reports of failures. Of course the supporters mostly the
sad owners who can see their boat value sinking (literally) demand
forensic proof, but gee even at their worst on OMC's own admission 4 out
of 5 didn't fail:-) Anyone want a buy a lottery ticket??? good odds 4
outta 5 are winners, the only tricky bit is the tickets can be up around
$15000 a throw:-) 5 outta 5 suffer boat value loss but hey don't blame
me you wanted to go gambling. K |
K.
|
| One the later Seaworthy from BoatUS shows a boat that has been stolen and
stripped. Those E-tecs would be no problem at all. |
Calif
Jan 26
|
| Maybe, maybe not. Those new 2 stroke DFI are very complicated, probably
more than the 4 strokes. My question is still the lubrication issues. At
idle expecially. |
Calif
Jan 26
|
| Depends on the boat and usage. Smaller power boats 25' or less used as ski
boats / wakeboard boats inboard. for running shallow rivers for fishing,
inboard jet, or outboard jet. For running medium big rivers 21-25' inboard
jets. For really big rivers 27'+ dual inboard jets. Large docked
sportfishers, inboard diesels. Bass boats O/B's. Bay boats that are docked
o/b's for trailer boats O/B or I/O. |
Calif
Jan 26
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| That is actually funny. |
Calif
Jan 26
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| Are you not missing a most popular form of boat propulsion from your
list? --
Skipper |
Skipper
Jan 25
|
| For smaller power boats, say 28' or less, I'd pick outboards because
they have plenty of power, are accessible, don't take up room in the
cockpit, and, best of all, aren't I/O's For larger boats, straight inboards, gasoline or diesel. |
Harry
Jan 25
|
| Oars? |
Harry
Jan 25
|
| My guess is he was talking about oars, OB, saildrive, sail and of course
farting while holding onto an inner tube.
|
Reggie
Jan 25
|
| I think the 4 stroke outboard has really closed the gap between I/O
and outboard. For small boats (20 or less) outboard is certainly the
way to go. If you keep your boat in the water I can't think of any
good reason for an I/O. The efficiency edge is gone now.
Once you get into the McYacht category (30+ cabin and such) inboards
rule. |
gfretwell
Jan 25
|
| two cycle outboards. with the new injection technology available to
almost every manufacturer, reliability and overall lighter weights,
new lubrications and overall performance, two stroke outboards have it
hands down over four stroke, inboards and diesels. |
Shortwave
Jan 25
|
| rotflmao!!!! |
Shortwave
Jan 25
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| It could also be hot air in Skippy's case. ;-) |
Jan 25
|
| For sure, if I ever buy another boat, I'll get an outboard. My 5.7L
Mercruiser 'seems' to have more problems than I hear of from those with
outboards, unless it's like a 1965 15hp Johnson. The outboard does not take up so much deck space as the engine cover on my
I/O. I like the design of the Grady Seafarer 228 with the "Grady Drive
Transom". It has as much fishing room as I need and lots of amenities to
keep the wife happy. I'd like an engine where changing the oil was a big job and winterizing
could be accomplished much more easily. But, I kind of like the idea that in a few years, when I need a new engine,
I can get what I need for $5000, instead of $15000.
--
John H ***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
|
JohnH
Jan 25
|
| If the boat requires just one engine and outboards are available, that is
the way to go. Otherwise twin inboards. |
Jan 25
|
| Twin inboards when they are necessary, but there are lots of
single-engine inboard boats that do very well on one prop. |
Harry
Jan 25
|
| For smaller boats... say 25' for less? I happen to own a boat with a single diesel inboard, and
find it very satisfactory especially for fuel economy.
Maintenance is easier too. Some things I am surprised nobody has mentioned about
outboards- they are targets for thieves.... they can be
unclamped & carried to the shop for repairs, or winter
storage; also ease of replacement is the best. DSK |
DSK
Jan 25
|
| Uh...handled any large outboards lately? First, they aren't clamped to
anything. They are bolted. Second, most owners go for at least one
security bolt, one that can only be removed with a key. Third, the
engines are about six feet tall. Fourth, they weigh about 500 pounds.
Sixth, most of the weight is in the powerhead, and you really need a
small crane to pull one up high enough to remove it and then move it to
the back of your pick-me-up-truck. Seventh, I'm insured. |
Harry
Jan 25
|
| i absolutely defy any thief to take one of the etecs off the
contender. just isn't possible. now ill grant you that lower units are a
seperate issue and i remove the lower units from all my outboards. |
Shortwave
Jan 25
|
| what he said... |
Shortwave
Jan 25
|
| foure stroke outboards are passe' - outmoded technology surpassed by
newer, better, faster and more reliable two stroke technolocy. |
Shortwave
Jan 25
|
| Whoops, add 'not' just before 'a big job'!
--
John H ***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
|
JohnH
Jan 25
|
| Yeah, your French is great, but *why*?
--
John H ***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
|
JohnH
Jan 25
|
| ? |
Shortwave
Jan 25
|
| *Why* are two strokes the way to go? --
John H ***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
|
JohnH
Jan 25
|
| foure stroke outboards are passe' - outmoded technology surpassed by
newer, better, faster and more reliable two stroke technolocy. |
Shortwave
Jan 26
|
| Two of these is all you need... http://www.godevil.com/ Wouldn't you think they would place a hyphen in their URL? Read it both
ways. Neither can be good for sales. Dan |
Dan
Jan 26
|
