E-Tec problems?? well yes if you want the HP you pay for

Not surprisingly given its strong on-water performance, the Mercury 250XS pulled the most horsepower (252 hp at 5200 rpm). Next was the Yamaha (246 hp at 5600 rpm). Evinrude brought up the rear (239 hp at 5600 rpm).

In terms of torque, the Yamaha 250 HPDI VMax edged Mercury with 268 lb.-ft. at 3800 rpm, vs. the Merc's 267 lb.-ft. at 4400 rpm. Evinrude came in a distant third, with 250 lb.-ft. at 4000 rpm.

end paste;

Gee those pesky "independent" tests, the dealers must be making up the excuses as we type:-) look at the lack of E-Tec torque!!! Woohoo this before your season even starts!!!!

Yes yes I know it's all technically legal, but be aware when the HP numbers get big so does that 10% allowance. I assume E-Tec charge for a full 250HP??? Oops silly me now I remember, that's right they're MORE expensive than the others.

K

Again, we agree.....

Skipper, selective edits, half truths and untruths, no citations.... yep, .... > >What a load of horse pucky.

Or maybe Ficht was Fine, and the company was grossly mismanaged.

del

..."Finally, there's price. Everyone knows that no one pays list. However, it's usually where the bargaining starts, unlike when dealing for a car or truck. In this arena, Merc's $16,664 list price is a bargain, even when it only includes the Torque Master lower unit and 1.75:1 ratio. To get an engine equipped like our test unit (with 1.62:1 ratio Sport Master gearcase), you'll have to shell out another $1286, for a total of $17,950. The Evinrude lists at $20,421, but keep in mind that BRP puts out an intentionally high list price to give their dealers more wiggle room when bargaining. Yamaha lists the suggested retail for its VMax 225 HPDI as $16,720, which is the best price of the three, considering how it's equipped. My guess is that any of these engines would be available from most dealers for somewhere between $16,000~$17,500."

The web version says nothing about total package. But since the boats were identical...

but i was referring to this one:

http://www.bassandwalleyeboats.com/output.cfm?id=943489

For many outboarders, cost is a major factor. Based on suggested retail, Mercury wins in this respect as well, with a list price of $15,860. That's almost $2000 less than Yamaha's $17,620 sticker, and nearly $3000 less than Evinrude's $18,531 price tag. What's important to know is that Merc's dealer margins are significantly smaller than Yamaha's or Evinrude's - meaning, there's less room for haggling. Hence, your actual cost likely will be much closer than list prices suggest.

Base Price (w/ Mercury 200 EFI): $36,450 Price As Tested (Evinrude 250): $44,982 (Merc 250XS OptiMax): $48,475 (Yamaha 250 HPDI VMax): $44,792

There must be a typo as it doesnt make sense..

Matt

Of course like you I suspect "some" are not as stupid as they pretend, is it even possible for "some"??? Of course some are more stupid than they lie:-)

It's part of they object to my on topic boating post because it doesn't follow the corporate marketing line.

The problem I have is that the dealers in E-Tec have started a full on Ficht replay of BS advertising, so when there is non Company material I stumble across I'll share it.

Of course the dealers will be running their stuff unchallenged as they wish.

K

-- Skipper

A lean burning engine is not necessarily a hot engine. There is a graph (roughly the shape of a bell curve) mapping a fuel/air mixture curve against heat generated in the engine. On the Y-axis temperature increase as the value increases. On the X-axis lean conditions to the left and rich conditions to the right. Visualize this curve and you can see that an engine can be run at the same temperature by running it " j amount" lean of peak or running it " k amount" rich of peak.

A modern, computerized, sensor controlled engine should have no problem managing engine conditions within safe limits.... if the software and inputs are correct.

>Or maybe Ficht was Fine, and the company was grossly mismanaged.

That was part of it, too... here is a old resource... probably slanted, but it does offer one glimpse of what was going on at OMC.... http://www.rbbi.com/wizard/wizomc/wizomc.htm http://www.rbbi.com/wizard/wizomc/wizomcp2.htm

As to contentions that Optimax is only a relabeled Ficht, it appears that Orbital Technology is the basis for that engine. Some contend (especially Orbital) that Ficht requires the use of some characteristics of the Orbital patent. At any rate, the Tohatsu employed Orbital technology and is pretty well regarded as a bulletproof engine.... so much for the detractors of technology. http://www.orbeng.com.au/orbital/aboutOrbital/history.htm

So, what did we learn from that episode? We learned that a gal from Aussieland could take on a recognized and respected technical guru and be vindicated. We also learned not to trust the advice of gurus quite so much in the future because they might well be wrong. We also learned that Bill's pride and ego would not let him admit that he led many down the primrose path.

Bill Grannis *is* a recognized and respected industry expert. Thousands were hurt in the Ficht debacle. This NG should be used as a forum to discuss such issues and warn folks of potential disasters. K did her job. Grannis should at least tip his hat to the good job K did in warning readers of the Ficht problem, she was the only one doing so. I thing he'd be a bigger man for doing so. -- Skipper

I always welcome a visit from anybody coming to Seattle. A guy from Derby, KS came up here severalyears ago and began singing my praises very enthusiastiacally, in this forum, immediately thereafter. Derby's a pretty small place and the odds are you probably know this guy. I could repost the glowing accolades yet again- but that would be immodest. Years later, the guy claimed that in reality he immediately developed the impression I was a true POS. I asked him, "Were you lying then, or are you lying now?" To be fair, I do think he insisted he was lying "then." So, a self-confessed liar from your same town has a low opinion of me. Darn. You now I live and breathe to try to make a good impression on posers and liars....(not).

But back to boats. What do you own upon which you could mount an outboard? A workbench bracket situated above a water-filled garbage can? When was the last time you were out on a boat (not as a charter client or cruise ship passenger)? I don't expect any answers, really. You come around here to stir up trouble, not discuss boats. You claim superior expertise and disparage the "boating CV" of others here- but the only story you have ever shared about your own boating experience (with the gas cans and the 30-foot waves in the Sea of Cortez) is such a lucky accident or obvious lie that it only makes you look even more ridiculous.

My challenge to you, Dave Mann of Derby, Kansas, would be to put up or shut up. Until or unless you are willing to share some evidence of being a boater or even owning a boat that sits unused in your driveway (did the sale on your 22-foot Bayliner from a few years ago fall through?) you have very little license to sit in judgment on the boating experiences of other participants in this group and certainly no business "dissing" the entire group as you recently did with your "boating CV" remark.

If you know so darn much about boats, Dave, you ought to know the make, model, LOA, etc of the boat you own. You ought to know where and when you use it. You should be able to discuss boating related issues without starting a flame war or cut 'n pasting something from the Ku Klux Klan website. But all we hear from you is negative remarks about nearly everybody else in the group, and not a scintilla of evidence that you have even been aboard a boat since you reported your Bayliner runabout sold a few years back. You contribute nothing to the group except stirring up discord. Even your childish "nautical jeopardy" crap has taken a sick and perverse turn to become a vehicle for personal attack.

http://tinyurl.com/22qec

-- Skipper

Not to suggest that here but often data that is without all the article can be misleading ..

The Merc in this case has 5% more HP which is hardly noticeable .. The thing is that you cant conclude that mers have more HP than rude... If you test 2 different motors it may look the otherway round as there are differences in each motor.

The data would only valid if a certain population of motors, lets say 10 was tested. From that data you could see SD and average HP. That comparison would be more meaningful.

Matt

its no secret that the data is from here:

http://www.bassandwalleyeboats.com/output.cfm?id=943489

Matt

On 27 Feb 2006 07:51:23 -0800, chuckgould.chuck@gmail.com wrote:

-- 'Til next time,

John H

***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****

On 27 Feb 2006 10:02:45 -0800, "basskisser" <atl_man2@yahoo.com> wrote:

-- 'Til next time,

John H

***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****

This is science? No, this is b.s.

Esp. since only one of each motor was tested its not much you can conclude from there..

Matt

After he "retired" from racing, my dad satified himself with always owning "the fastest outboard boat" on Long Island Sound. He built these himself over the winter. They were lightly modified "utility runabouts" with engines he got from the factory racing team. For some reason, these engines always seem to put out a lot more horses than the engines on the boats he raced against.

The Merc in that review everyone is citing probably was "blueprinted" and hand assembled and tested and tweaked by Merc Racing. Ergo, ALL bets are off.

Cripes.

Read for content, guys.

-- Skipper

Twice in the above post you mention the lack of E-TEC torque and HP. If you would read the magazine article, it is from March of 2003 and they are comparing the FICHT motor (Evinrude DI), not an E-TEC!!!!! That is 2 years BEFORE the V-6 E-TEC was put into production.

Talk about "spruiking" in reverse. Bad mouthing an engine and not even knowing which one is being tested !!!!

Besides that, notice that the magazine comments on how well the FICHT runs compared to the others, and that was the one they preferred.

Bill Grannis service manager

Twice in the above post you mention the lack of E-TEC torque and HP. If you would read the magazine article, it is from March of 2003 and they are comparing the FICHT motor (Evinrude DI), not an E-TEC!!!!! That is 2 years BEFORE the V-6 E-TEC was put into production.

Talk about "spruiking" in reverse. Bad mouthing an engine and not even knowing which one is being tested !!!!

Besides that, notice that the magazine comments on how well the FICHT runs compared to the others, and that was the one they preferred.

Bill Grannis service manager

-- Skipper

I have no beef with you because you do not expound on the E-TEC one way or another, as it is not your expertise. You do continue to defend someone who knows nothing about DI motors except what some blokes told her.

Now here she outright lies about a magazine article, thinking folks won't realize it is about a 3 year ago story that has NOTHING to do about E-TEC. Don't you think she should apologize for trying to "hoodwink" people who read her posts?

There is an old saying, that goes, "Never bet on a "nag" in a thoroughbred horserace". Don't you think that is appropriate in this situation???

It is too bad that one manufacturer didnt come up to rpm but they dont have a prop for that ... so not much that can be done here

Matt

Matt

del

I'm not bad mouthing anyone, but some folks are posting like an etec is some sort of magic motor that gets way better gas mileage than a Optimax or HPDI or 4Stroke, which doesn't seem to be confirmed by B&WB. Great magazine, by the way. I read it cover to cover every issue.

del

But if you look at the total cost for the boat and motor the merc was the most expensive..

Matt

P.S. Take in mind that one of the other posters was right that it was a FICHT not Etec.

..

http://my.boatus.com/consumer/OMCBankruptcy.asp

> BTW, how does this concern you? You don't own anything upon which to mount an outboard of any > variety

Wrong again, Chuckster. I think all readers should trek on up to Seattle and see for themselves what an incompetent and unscrupulous schlort your really are.

-- Skipper

-- Skipper

People (with a lot less integrity than Ms. Smith) have been known, sometimes regularly, to use highly selected snippets taken out of context. Some of the more malevolent and screwed up among that subset will blatantly alter the quoted material- even when there is absolutely *no* hope that they could ever get away undetected. While Karen and I have a history of disagreeing, I accept without reservation that the sentences she quoted read exactly the way she reported them.

(It could be that the magazine article was not online, and that typing the entire article would be tedious and there is no available link. In that case, the title of the publication and the issue # would be useful.....)

For an example of linking an entire article, Skipper, if I were to offer you some advice for your next "cruise" it would be better to offer you a link to this article:

http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=132

than to post a few sentences or even a paragraph taken out of context. See what I mean?

BTW, did you see that nice article about cruising locations published by Grandma Rosalie in the cruising group, Harry. You really should heed the advice of those with real experience. Ta ta.

-- Skipper

http://www.bassandwalleyeboats.com/output.cfm?id=943489

-phish

-- Skipper