Ethanol and WTF?
I'm hearing some rather disturbing things about the addition of
ethanol to gas and in particular as it relates to boats.One is having to flush tanks before using ethanol to get rid of any
sediment and water that may be lurking. Also that you need to keep
your tanks full to prevent the ethanol from picking up stray water
from condensation. Anybody know anything about this? |
Shortwave
Apr 2
2006
|
| Where does that link say ANYTHING about the oil not mixing with E-85
properly? All you've given so far is hyperbole. I've not seen one tiny
bit of convincing evidence that backs up your contention that oil won't
mix with E-85. Do you have any? What's more, E-85 actually runs cooler
than unleaded gasoline, that actually being a good thing for your
engine. It also burns cleaner, another good thing for your engine. |
basskisser
Apr 6
|
| No, because I agree with them. I enjoy the water and I don't need to have it fouled by some idiot oil
company interested only in profit. (Check the price at the pump.) It is time for the government to pour money into alternative energy
the same way they did the space program in the 50's and 60's. Petroleum is dying as a preferred energy source. Those countries
looking toward the future will lead the world. Those looking back and
fixated on what worked 100 years ago are doomed to take a back
seat.... Your (country's) choice.... |
Gene
Apr 6
|
| You know, all the preceeding discussion (?) aside.... I don't think I'm
going to be burning fuel of 85 % alcohol 15% gasoline in my FICHT. YMMV? |
Butch
Apr 6
|
| Idiot (like that's a revelation). From http://www.ethanol.org/whatisethanol.html E85 - 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline E85 is an alternative fuel for use in flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs). There
are currently more than 4 million FFVs on America's roads today, and
automakers are rolling out more each year. In conjunction with more
flexible fuel vehicles, more E85 pumps are being installed across the
country. When E85 is not avaialble, these FFVs can operate on straight
gasoline or any ethanol blend up to 85%. |
Fred
Apr 6
|
| We are "under their thumb" because, being the supplier of raw |
Gene
Apr 6
|
| Not if you want to "get out from under the thumb of oil exporting |
Fred
Apr 6
|
| can't do numbers, eh? even if all in storage were imported it would
still be less than 10 percent of domestic production in 05. Point at a
link to "investement journal" or other source that says different.
Perhaps you are confused about future projections rather that present
situation. del
|
Del
Apr 6
|
| Most of the ethanol used in the us is made in the us. Brazilian ethanol is made from sugar cane.
|
Del
Apr 5
|
| Since ethanol is so damned inefficient in the first place (it takes a
lot more energy to make it than you get when you burn it) I can't
imagine how shipping it very far can make any sense at all.
The only thing that might be worse in efficiency terms is the hydrogen
boondoggle. |
gfretwell
Apr 5
|
| 20% is made in the US. The rest comes from Brazil and Mexico. >Brazilian ethanol is made from sugar cane. I know - it was a joke. |
Shortwave
Apr 5
|
| The objective of envirolunatics is to destroy or eridicate internal
combustion engines. Nobody should be surprised to learn that ethanol-
treated fuels do so. |
Fred
Apr 6
|
| The goal of envirolunatics is to make the US economy as inefficient as
possible. |
Fred
Apr 6
|
| E85 is 85% ethanol and only 15% gasoline. |
Fred
Apr 6
|
| The energy required to make ethanol is apparently a controversial
question. For example some folks count the energy to manufacture the
tractor used to grow the corn. Some count the energy to mine the iron to
make the tractor. Some add in the energy to make the trucks and power
shovels to mine the iron to make the tractor. Some add the energy to
make the factory to process the iron ore. And so on with the fertilizer
etc. Then they compare to the energy in a gallon of gasoline. At least ethanol is pretty much neutral with respect to carbon balance. del del |
Del
Apr 5
|
| Actually it's pretty simple. Over a period of time, the alcohol WILL
seperate fromt he peteroleum...but not instantly. The properties of the 2-cycle mix will mix well with the gasoline, but
will avoid the alcohol, and when running the E-85 (85% alcohol) it
won't hardly mix at all. The fuel turns into little droplets that jsut
sort of suspend to the top of the fluid in the container. So when running the E-85, even on an automatic oil-injected engine. you
have the raw , DRY, alcohol fuel, with globs of oil splattering around
in the combustion chambers as well as in the crank case and the
bearings and rings don't get the adiquate lubrication they need. PLUS,
you have to run a leaner fuel to air mixture, which unless the engine
is made for such, will cause the combustion to be much hotter, and
needless to say, the engine and components will suffer due to not only
the excess friction, but way higher combustion temp. i did some looking around and found a pretty good example of this
scenerio: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/669605551/m/638107099/r/983104299 I realize he's talking abotu a junk chainsaw, but look at Tim's second
post. It pretty well tells what the problem's one would face,
especially on an older 2 cycle outboard. |
tschnautz
Apr 5
|
| I think it was last month that BoatUS had a artical about ethanol in
older fiberglass tanks. They were doing so testing that was not yet
finished. The testing was prompted due to a high number of older boat having
engine failures with black sludge in the engine. They are suspecting
that the fibreglass is having some sort of reaction due to the ethanol. The most failures were in the NY and upper North East with one in Calif. You might find somthing on there web site about it if you look around. Capt Jack R.. |
Jack
Apr 6
|
| Apparently your statistic above is a joke also. A few minutes searching
produced "The U.S. ethanol industry produced a record 3.9 billion gallons of fuel
in 2005, according to the Renewable Fuels Association (RFA). In December
2005, ethanol fuel production reached 364.4 million gallons, but fell
short of demand, which rocketed to 403.2 million gallons. The excess
demand was partially met by imports of 32.2 million gallons of ethanol,
while 233.6 million gallons of ethanol in storage provide about 20 days
of reserve to help meet demand. " So 90 percent is domestic production. Thanks for playing. del |
Del
Apr 5
|
| Except that corn syrup is used as a sugar substitute in most commercial
foodstuffs, because the federal sugar program makes sugar so expensive.
As more corn is used for ethanol production, expect your grocery bill to
increase. And you can be sure the feds won't repeal the corrupt and
obscene "pay not to grow" programs. |
Fred
Apr 6
|
| And where do you think the ethanol in storage came from? You need to read business journals and investment bulletins a little
more. Thanks for playing. |
Shortwave
Apr 6
|
| I don't have to worry about that because my tanks are poly and pretty
immune to that - I think. Thanks for the heads up though. |
Shortwave
Apr 6
|
| considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
The objective... and it is a damn good one.... is to get out from
under the thumb of oil exporting countries. Ethanol is just a really,
really, poor way to do it.
|
Gene
Apr 6
|
| Why do people think we are "under the thumb" of oil producing
countries. It is a commodity, just like any other commodity. As long
as it is the cheapest alternative we will buy it. When a cheaper
alternative comes along we will buy that one.
It is only recently that Canadian oil shale became economically
attractive and now we have another choice. It is still simply a market
commodity. At a certain point we will pass the point where it makes
economic sense to make a coal based liquid fuel but that is probably
up around the $100 a bbl range. The Germans did it 60 years ago so it
isn't hard, just expensive.
Who knows what the price will have to be to make ethanol viable on any
large scale. At a certain point we are burning food and that doesn't
sound sustainable either. What is the environmemntal effect of turning
more wilderness into farm land to support a huge biofuel market? When you listen to the guys who look at global warming on a long term
scale they set the time that we started changing the trend at about
8000 years ago, about when we started clearing land to farm it.
Read the article in Scientific American from a couple months ago. |
gfretwell
Apr 6
|
| I read that - kind of interesting, but I couldn't help think after I
read it that pining for the ancient times is a little counter
productive. :>) |
Shortwave
Apr 6
|
| Care to scan and post your letter to your Senators & Congressmen in favor
of ANWR and offshore exploration? Look, here's some space to post that scan: |
Fred
Apr 6
|
| http://www.oar.noaa.gov/spotlite/archive/spot_sunclimate.html Note the temperature dip in the first chart, which is likely what caused
the same drooling morons who now squawk about "warming" to Chicken Little
us about "the coming Ice Age". |
Fred
Apr 6
|
| I see that Texas has just introduced an optional mixture of ... 85%
Ethanol/15% gasoline ... in certain stations. I wonder what THAT will
do
to my Texas based boat??? It will burn your two-stroke up! I'm suprised you didn't do it with the ethanl (wisconsin) blend . Two cycle oil has a difficult time mixing with the alcohol in the fuel. when E-85 first hit this area. it was considerably cheaper than regular
fossil fuel. some el-cheapo's decided that was the way to go fir "feeshin' in the
locak lake. The local mechanic had a a great time replacing power heads
and complete engines beliving E-85 was a God-send! People wouldn't believe that the Ethanol would destroy a two-stroke
after all "gas-is-gas". he had a jar with E-85 in it, with some two stroke oil. You could shake
up that jar like a hula girl. Stop. and watch the oil imediatly float
to the top. it didn't mix one bit. One bad thing is a lot of gas stations will throw in yup to 15%
ethanol, without advertizing it at the pumps. so you have to be careful
where you buy your fuel. My lowly little Chris Craft has a 4-cyl Chevy 3.0, and I burn the 15%
Ethanol in it. but usually throw a little bottle of HEET in with a tank
ful. Tim |
tschnautz
Apr 4
|
| In most places, Minnesota included, gas stations are required by law to
have oxygenate in the fuel. Some places used to use MBTE, but now many
use ethanol. In 07 Minnesota is going to 20 percent. What's good for
the corn farmers is good for you. Some stations here have "boat gas" without ethanol, for off road use
only. del |
Del
Apr 4
|
| Certainly helps the corn farmers in Brazil. |
Shortwave
Apr 5
|
| I don't believe that at all. How does the ethanol mix with the gas, if
it won't mix with the oil? Also, how does the ethanol, at 15% keep the
oil from mixing with the 85% gasoline? |
basskisser
Apr 5
|
| MY only personal experience with the issue was... I moved my 16 ft Carolina Skiff with 40 yamaha 2 cycle from Texas
(non-ethanol) to Wisconsin (Ethanol) a few years ago. Shortly after I
first used the motor in Wisconsin ( perhaps shortly after my first tank of
Wisconsin gas) my engine started acting weird. It would hesitate; it was
hard to start; and finally ... it wouldn't re-start once I got on the lake.
After doing some reading, I replaced the fuel hose and bulb and all was well
again. I assumed that it was just a failing hose/bulb issue....until I did
some further reading... What I read ( and what you have already read) was that the first tank or so
of Ethanol "cleaned out" all of the "crud" that had built up in 4 year old
fuel system. That crap made its way to the engine and to the fuel line and
plugged it up. In my case, I got lucky with just replacing a
fuel/line/bulb. It may well be that the inside lining of the fuel/line/bulb
was deteriorating on its own, and Ethanol just helped that process along too
quickly. Other boaters, ( I have read) have had to have their engines fuel
system (filters, lines, carbs ) cleaned more thoroughly. after using a tank
or two of Ethanol based gasoline. I see that Texas has just introduced an optional mixture of ... 85%
Ethanol/15% gasoline ... in certain stations. I wonder what THAT will do
to my Texas based boat??? RichG TX --
manager, Carolina Skiff Owners Group on MSN
http://groups.msn.com/CarolinaSkiffOwners
.. |
RichG
Apr 2
|
| In some states, such as Connecticut, the biggest problem has been because of the
switch from MBTE to Ethanol. They don't play nice together, and the ethanol
turns any remaining MBTE into a nasty gray sludge that is causing a lot of
expensive grief. That is probably the basis for what you have been hearing.
Ethanol on its own is not so bad. Combining with stray condesate water on an
ongoing basis is probably a benefit, not a liability. |
Mys
Apr 2
|
| Isn't picking up stray water a good thing? People have been using Dry Gas
for years to rid their tanks of water. Dry Gas is ethanol. |
thunder
Apr 2
|
| following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats: |
Gene
Apr 2
|
