"chartering" with guests

I have a charter captain friend who told me once that there is a loophole around the conventional "6-pack" CG License chartering regulations.

He said something to the effect that if you have a contract that specifies that the boat is being rented as a whole to the "guests", that they are able to pick whoever they'd like to be the captain of their "rented" vessel, whether that person is licensed or not.

So, in essence, the boat "rental" provides the income, and the "captain" performs duties for free.

With this method, he was able to charter his boat with more than 6 guests, and without a captain's license.

Does anyone know the real story on this? Was he f.o.s.?

Thanks,

Mike.

So the RCCL ship Grandeur of the Seas has an itinerary which goes from Baltimore to Miami, Key West, Cozumel, Costa Maya and Port Canaveral before returning to Baltimore and that's perfectly legal because they start and end in the same port. And I was on the NCL Crown which went Philadelphia, Bahamas, San Juan, St. Thomas, St Maarten, Curacao and Aruba, and ending in Miami and that's legal too because they went to Curacao and Aruba which are distant foreign ports. Yes it is a $200 per pax fine, but the cruise ship pays it.

It's called a Demise Charter - basically the lease of a vessel in which all control is relinquished by the owner to the charterer, and the charterer bears all the expenses of operation.

It's kind of like a bareboat charter only slightly different.

That's where the OUPV thing used (note the used) to come in - apparently in Section 2101.1.42 the term uninspected used to allow for up to 12 passengers and there wasn't a distinction between between vessels of 100 gross tons or greater and 100 gross tons and under.

However, that all changed in 1993 with something called the Passenger Vessel Safety Act (Public Law public law 103-206) which eliminated the loophole where vessels operating under legitimate bareboat or demise charters were not required to meet the commercial passenger vessel standards. Thus, even if you had an OUPV, under the old Demise Charter regs, you could take up to 12 passengers. There were some other technical legal specifics involved and I don't have time to search for them. It's mute anyway because it can't be done anymore.

So there you have it. I was right in that you could do it at one time but since 1993 you can't anymore because that loophole was closed. Which is interesting because I know some charter captains who are still operating under the impression that it's all legal and what not. It also would appear that I need to peruse the CFR's - I've had my license a long time and haven't really kept up with the regs - need to put that on my to-do list for the winter.

Let's call it a draw. :>)

And now, I'm about to get my butt in line, head off to NC and sea trial my new boat.

WHOO HOO!!

By the way Capt JG - pleasure meeting you - all the best.

Definitely a good idea staying current. No one wants to argue with the CG and be wrong. :-)

What's your new boat? In any case, have a safe flight. Be sure to take your shoes off when you get in line.

Pictures ?

It's just like if you hired a captain to run your own private boat for a day. There are no paying guests, so there for the "captain" would not have to have a license according to the USCG. And yes, I have asked them about this. But in most cases your insurance would require it.

I've been doing this for decades. And I even know of a large, 90" +, foregn charter boat in this area that got stopped by the CG on just this issuse. He had all is ducks in a row as far as the contract paper trail goes, and nothing came of it.

A fast way of finding out would be to call the local CG office, speak to a chief and see what he or she says.

What about your insurance company, what do THEY think? That's where you are most likely to get in trouble first. Your co called friends will be calling lawyers very quickly if there is any kind of mishap onboard. It is unlikely in my opinion, that your insurance company will provide charter coverage without a licensed captain.

About 12 years ago the rules were eased up a little, allowing for guests to share some expenses, bring lunch, etc. However, anything that "smells" like making money is not allowed. The question that must be asked is "Would the captain take these guests out even if they were not contributing anything?" If the answer is "No," then they are probably passengers for hire. If the answer is "yes", then they are friendly guests who happen to be contributing a bit. If the contribution is less than a share of the fuel cost, it probably isn't a charter. If the Captain ends up with more money in his pocket then he started with, it is a charter. However, the CG has a lot of local discretion on a case by case basis.

The following is taken from: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/nvic/7_94/n7-94.htm

The important parts are "contributed as a condition" and "'Consideration' does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of a voyage."

SEC. 506. PASSENGER FOR HIRE.

Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (21) and (22) a new paragraph (21a) to read as follows:

"(21a) 'passenger for hire' means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.".

DESCRIPTION - The determination of what constitutes the carriage of a "passenger for hire" must be made on a case by case basis. This determination is dependent upon the actual operation of a vessel and the flow of consideration as determined by the facts of each case. In general, there needs to be some form of tangible consideration or promise of performance being passed for a "passenger for hire" situation to exist.

SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.

Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:

"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.".

DESCRIPTION - Section 507 amends 46 U.S.C. 2101 by adding a definition of the term "consideration." Although this term was used in the prior definition of a "passenger," it was not previously defined by statute. Generally, some tangible amount of worth exchanged for carriage on a vessel such as payment, exchange of goods or a promise of performance is required. "Consideration" does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of a voyage. Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes is not included as exchange of consideration.

You will piss off a chief if you bullshit him/her. There's NO better bullshitter than a chief.

It's called demarage or something like that (can't remember the exact term) but the way it works is you rent the boat sans captain, then provide a list of captains who are acceptable to you allowing the charterer to obtain his own captain. The way it works is you provide the list to the charterer, say three captains, and oddly, only one is available to do the charter. Assuming that your boat can handle the capacity, you can have up to twelve people aboard with a Captain who has an OUPV - that Captain can be you assuming you have the proper license.

The captain is still required to have a license and has to stay within the tonnage and/or limitations of the license, but that's the way it is done.

But, that said, I agree... get the license.

More than 6 = Master

plus:

"Passenger Vessel: Certified according to the size and number of passengers (not engaged in educational activities or in the operation of the vessel) carried under Title 46 of the CFR.

Subchapter C: Uninspected vessels which operate with no more than six passengers.

Subchapter T: Small passenger vessels of under 100 gross tons that carry more than six passengers and are required to pass regular USCG inspection of the ship and all onboard equipment.

Subchapter K: Small passenger vessels of under 100 gross tons that carry more than 150 passengers and are required to pass regular USCG inspection of the ship and all onboard equipment.

Subchapter H: Passenger vessels of more than 100 gross tons that carry passengers for hire and are required to pass regular USCG inspection of the ship and all onboard equipment. "

What you cannot do is exceed the 12 person max - that's the key. And you have to stay within the tonnage and distance limitations of your license - so, for instance, if you have an OUPV Near Shore out to one hundred miles and your boat can handle the capacity safely, that's the limitation. And you have to be hired to operate the boat - even if it's your own boat.

I'm not going to argue about it because I honestly don't care if you believe it or not and I don't have the time to look it up. If you really honestly doubt it and want to prove me wrong, then by all means, call your local USCG MSO or one of those "captains" schools and ask them about it - I suspect the "captains" school might be a better source because that's how they sell their "stuff". :>)

And, I wish to make it perfectly clear, that I don't agree with it and I think it's something that should be closed. I would not advise doing it in any case and I don't recommend it.

As with anything on the Internet, unless you can independently verify it, in writing from a unimpeachable source, view it as suspicious and/or highly unlikely.

If I'm wrong, I'll admit it right here in front of God and the whole virtual universe - I've been wrong before and probably, well, more than likely, be wrong again.