Magnetic fuel conditioners.....

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not be beyond the realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts to explain why. There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key search terms would include "diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic" and "paramagnetic".

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently "magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen "electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a magnetic field. Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that virtually every element on the periodic table will react either positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons. Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive and negative electrical charges found within and immediately surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms, less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website, (www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address, phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more combustible orthohydrogen.

I guess P.T. Barnum had it right?

It's the same Karl. He posted about it in this group at the time and drew quite a bit of flack for his subjective assessment of the product.

As others have said, if magnetic fuel treatment really worked, the manufacturers and big fleet operators would be falling all over themselves to install the product. They are not doing that.

Other than pride of ownership, the most likely reason for some of these glowing reports is that people upgrade their entire filtration system and start using a good fuel treatment additive at the same time that they install the magnet. Those steps *are* proven to be beneficial.

I pose a question regarding whether or not such a device could work, and explore how it might work if it does.

Hardly a review, and certainly not an endorsement.

It's kind of a Quantum Zen thing - if one believes it to be true, then it must be true regardless of evidence to the contrary because it is true to you.

One is reminded of the arthritis fad of a few years ago - magnetic bracelets and vests with magnets in them to decrease back pain. All the rage because "they worked" - complete with testimonials.

Worked until something better came along.

As an X saleman, wouldn't you think this product would be as easy as selling sliced bread, if it worked?

CARB compliance means that it doesn't increase emissions, not that it improves them. That's the only thing you can conclude from the study. There's not enough data to draw a stronger conclusion. You don't know what the normal variance in exhaust emissions for that engine is. That can be surprisingly large, particularly since they're not controling for engine operating temperature.

It seems so simple, I can not figure out why anyone would believe in thier claims. That being said, the "Split Fire" sparkplugs have been around for years, and they have been proven to be a waste of money. http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/05/c3737cmp.htm,

So I guess it is reasonable to expect people to buy useless products, and their will always be someone there to sell it to them.

Wayne, I wonder if Chuck is being swayed by this logic.

Capt Jack R..

Sounds like this magnetic device would work just about as well as the Hydro-Catalyst,

It is also reasonable to assume

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel, improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims, smoke, and a few mirrors.

They're supposed to reduce the smoke....

DT

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of minimum results. It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer testimonials".

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without=20 personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an=20 indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel=20 that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally=20 needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof=20 than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email=20 some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*=20 convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment=20 sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are=20 "unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla=20 was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of=20 people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western=20 scientists) had never seen one. :-)

> > I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.- Hide quoted text -

I think a snake would be diamagnetic. :-)

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still* convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are "unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western scientists) had never seen one. :-)

What's that saying you use down there...?? * I'm from Missouri *

:I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal :experience with one.

:You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without :personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an :indepedent organization.

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. Fuel economy, power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid methods. Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling them for 50 years or more. If they worked, you'd know about it, because engine manufacturors would include them in their product. Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10% more fuel use? I don't believe they work, because I know enough physics to understand that the claims people make are equivalant to claiming the moon is made of green cheese.

:Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel :that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally :needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof :than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email :some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still* :convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment :sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are :"unverifiable".

So you ask someone, who's just spent a silly amount of money having one of these things installed, whether it works. Of course they're going to say it does. To say it doesn't, would mean admiting that they'd been taken in on the scam. People don't like to admit they've made mistakes that cost them money. David

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.

The explanation you quoted in the first post was pretty much gibberish, near as I can tell. Magnets creating othohydrogen and killing bacteria?

You don't believe this stuff do you?

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch

Good grief, hombre, why even mention this crap on here except to provoke a response. Not a good thing to do if one wishes to enhance one's credibility.

Butch "Chuck Gould" <chuckgould.chuck@gmail.com> wrote in message

If Chuck wants to perform a useful service, he should perform a double-blind trial. He will need a twin engine boat with advanced fuel system and engine monitoring. Ideally the engines would be new, otherwise they should be the same age and hours and recently serviced. He will also need two of the 'magnetic devices', some fuel line, 4 bulkhead fittings, 2 identical opaque enclosures large enough to house the devices and some tamper-proof warrenty labels. Each enclosure should be assembled with two bulkhead fittings and a device mounted inside it. The external appearance *must* be identical. In one of them the device should be connected to the fittings, in the other the same length of fuel line should be used to conect the two fittings bypassing the device. Have a stranger shuffle the two boxes while you are out of the room and then return and seal the two boxes with the warrenty seals and label them A and B. Have boxes A and B fitted in identical sections of the fuel lines to the port and starboard engines and run the boat next season. Keep detailed signed records of fuel consumption and all engine performance data available and which box is on which engine. At every service interval, swap boxes A & B. When you lay the boat up for the winter, get a witness and open the boxes to determine which of A & B was the dummy and which was 'active'. Post the raw results and give us a link here. Write an article for the magazine.

I would expect any *genuine* fuel conditioning device manufacturer (filtration, additives or whatever) to co-operate with a proper double blind trial conduted by a boating magazine , even to the extent of providing the two devices free. I doubt the magnetic widget suppliers will even let chuck buy a pair if he lets slip he wants to do proper tests on them. If Chuck is willing to attempt the trial but finds the manufacturer un-cooperative, we must assume the devices are pure snake oil.

They're bogus, completely. But PT Barnum was right and folks like that prove him right every day.

Like I have said, I'm not claiming that these things work- merely intrigued by the possiblity that they might and that there may be some scientific basis for a magnetic field affecting the electrons of the hyrodgen atom.

If these devices are a scam (and they might be), it is certainly one of the longest running and most successful scams to come down the pike in a long time. Magnetic fuel conditioners have been around for at least 10 years that I can remember, and probably more. The local dealer for another brand of magnetic fuel conditioner mentioned to me that he sold out of these things today, retailing as many in the first 5 days of this year's boat show as he sold in all 9 days last year.

So far in this discussion we have:

Gould, wondering whether these things could work Others, absolutely certain that they could not work Still others, claiming that they have used one of these devices and been pleased with the result.

Notably missing:

Anyone with first hand experience with a magnetic fuel conditioner who noticed either no results or negative results. Anybody out there willing to fess up? :-)

http://www.diesel-fuels.com/pdf/lgx-test.pdf

Please understand, I'm not defending the data or insisting that these devices work, simply wondering what the standard for an independent test would be?

:Like I have said, I'm not claiming that these things work- merely :intrigued by the possiblity that they might and that there may be some :scientific basis for a magnetic field affecting the electrons of the :hyrodgen atom.

The moon is made of green cheese, Chuck. That's just as likely as these things working. The allegedly scientific explanation makes as much sense as pointing a wand at your engine, saying "Abra-Cadbra!" and expecting your fuel usage to fall. Don't take my word for it, though. See what the FTC has to say: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm

If they worked, you'd know it. They're a scam.

Any comment on the data developed by a CARB certified testing agency and linked in a previous post in this thread? =EF=BF=BD

Reminds me of all the "consumer testimonials" provided by Slick 50. After a few years it was found that Slick 50 actually damaged many engines. The claims were proven false and Slick 50 agreed to settle out of court. http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.htm

If this magnetic fuel conditioner actually worked, the mfg'er could gain some great PR by proving the EPA wrong. It is also reasonable to assume the EPA would love to endorse a product that actually increased fuel efficiency and reduced pollution. It is also reasonable to expect boat mfg'ers would jump on a very inexpensive product that would allow them to provide better fuel economy. Everything about this product says scam.

While your retailer might be providing a satisfaction guarantee, the mfg'er is not as confident about the product as the the retailer.

When the EPA states magnetic fuel conditioners are a scam, it really isn't in the best interest of a magazine to provide free PR for a product that the experts believe will not work.

I would have thought you would have avoided this product like the plague, even if it is being retailed by a local store who does advertise in your mag.

:Certainly very interesting.

:Any comment on the data developed by a CARB certified testing agency :and linked in a previous post in this thread? ???

Too small a sample size to mean anything, for one thing. I'm not in the mood to really look at the numbers, but there's substantal variation in them run to run. That's not necessarily a flaw, but it does mean that they need more data to show that the changes they report mean anything. And they don't report some things that would make a difference in how the engine runs, like the coolant temperature, or the ambient temperature.

-rick-

It might be useful to add a sidebar noting the EPA's statement that magnetic fuel conditioners it tested (which didn't seem to include any of the marine brands) did not work, and contrast that with the test results from the CARB certified testing agency (linked in this thread) that appear to demonstrate that at least the specific device it tested changed the combustion characteristics of the fuel.

And yes, it's entirely possible that the company selling this device sent one to every testing company in the United States and it failed to show any results at any testing company *except* this one and it's entirely possible that the data reported by the testing company is flawed due to a faulty testing procedure.

Just like the people who really want to believe that a device like this *has* to work are difficult to persuade that it cannot work, people who really want to believe that a device like this absolutely *cannot* work are difficult to persuade that it might.

I don't avoid controversy "like the plague". Haven't you noticed? :-)

http://www.algae-x.net/Endorsements/Marine/snake_oil.pdf

What are the odds that the "Denninger" who ran a test (not entirely dissimilar from what Ian describes above) with a 45-foot Hatteras and reported the results in a blog called "Snake Oil Chronicles" couldn't be the Karl Denninger who at one time was a regular poster here?

*If* this were the same Denninger (don't know that it is) would his detailed report of testing a magnetic fuel conditioner be more acceptable to the group than comments from an unknown person?

Once again, I would not want to say absolutely that this is the same person- but it's a rather unusual last name, and the universe of people named Denninger who are interested in boating and likely to own a Hatteras or similar quality vessel has to be extremely small. I do not mean to imply that this person is or absolutely has to be Karl Denninger, ex-denizen of this newsgroup, and if an apology is in order for merely wondering whether it might be, I'll extend it in advance.

To be a valid trial, both the boat operator and the experimenter must have no idea which box contains the active device and which is the dummy until all the data is in. Otherwise you cant eliminate subconscious differences in operating habits and fuel system hygiene.

I can think of a number of ways of rigging a test unit that is only going to be used for a few hours or tens of hours (e.g. a slow dissolving fuel additive packed into it) to get results in a short trial. Buying the device retail at a random location would vastly reduce the risk of such tampering. OTOH its possible that *all* the devices contain such an additive as the operator is unlikely to attribute a gradual decline in performance to the device being used up.

Sampling the fuel before and after the device after a couple of hours running and getting it analysed could eliminate the slow release additive possibility.

The effect of magnetism on clean bulk fuel seems unlikely to cause differences in combustion efficiency. Its possible there *IS* a subtle biological effect to bacteria not seen in larger organisms, such as the possibility that it may reduce the clumping leading to smaller particles that can pass the filters and injector and get burnt with the fuel but my comments on the claim it kills them stand.

If there was a lethal effect on any bacteria, not affecting larger organisms I would expect that anyone that has been NMR imaged would have a week or two of severe digestive discomfort and unpleasant symptoms until a normal population of gut bacteria has been restored. Anyone who has ever had a course of oral broad spectrum antibiotics will know what I mean . . .

Since *all* diesel fuel will have been in a steel tank at some time during the production and supply chain and it is being fed to an engine fuel system with many steel parts , the requirement that the boat's tank isn't steel is *interesting*. It does depend on the reason claimed for its unsuitability for steel tanks. Their main website claims that the unit will trap particles from corroded steel tanks and that this is beneficial.

In any case the psuedoscientific 'bafflegab' used to describe its operation does little to inspire confidence in the product or the principles behind it.

It would be interesting to dissect one and see what's actually in there!

IMHO the jury is still out but its not looking good for the defendant . . .