Chilly Diesel Problems
News here says lots of school bus operators are having problems with fuel
gelling in the fuel filters because of low-sulphur fuel. They can't get
enough kerosene for some reason. What's in the big containers of diesel
additives I've seen for sale at truck stops? Kerosene? Other? Not suitable
for educational (school bus) use? |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 7
|
| I obviously defer to your expertise Bill. Thanks for setting the record
straight on this. ;-) |
JimH
Feb 9
|
| Well, I'm glad to see everybody having fun today. :>) |
Short
Feb 9
|
| it's a sunny 32 degrees here today. gives me hope for tomorrow. and
the future forcasts look like the local global cooling might be
gradually winding down. But it is still February.... |
Tim
Feb 9
|
| No, Bill is right. I have attended at least five,
possibly six, cold weather rescue/cold water rescue/
hypothermia clinics presented by Dr. Murray Hamlet
who used to run the Combat Resources Center at the
U.S. Army's Research Institute of Environmental Medicine
(or whatever it is called now), Natick, MA. Dr. Hamlet
is the world's leading expert on cold and cold
weather operations and rescue. Dr. Hamlet says as
part of his cold rescue presentations that "the one thing
you can count on is that a stiff will be a stiff - the
body cannot get any colder than ambient temperature". I'm quoting directly from my notes taken at the 1999
EMS Cold Weather/Water Rescue seminar presented at the
USCG Academy, New London,CT. The seminar was for folks
involved in paramedic level dive medicine and cold condition
SAR - which happened to include me. :>) |
Short
Feb 9
|
| It's only 20 here and wind gusting 20/25. I don't know what the "semi-hemi-demi-quasi Real Feel
it's still only as cold as the ambient" temperature
is, but what ever it is - IT'S FREAKIN' COLD!!! |
Short
Feb 9
|
| Tom,
I realize Bill was correct, I was poking fun at JimH's line when he was
saying Bill didn't understand Wind Chill. Bill obviously understood it
much better than JimH. |
Reginald
Feb 9
|
| Response from son's physics teacher: "Thermodynamics isn't my strong suit.
I'm consulting someone smarter than I am on the subject, and will get back
to you shortly". At least he's honest. But, this is why my son insisted on finding a tutor
last year, when his curiosity went beyond what the teacher could explain.
:-( and :-), both. |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 9
|
| Agreed. But the beer or radiator fluid will not go below ambient
temperature no matter how much air you blow on it. On the other hand, living tissue will and this is traditionally called
the Wind Chill factor. |
JimH
Feb 9
|
| The flesh will not go below ambient temperature. Wind chill is the apparent
amount of heat that would be lost if the temperature was lower. If the
temperature is 5f and a wind chill is -30f, the flesh will lose heat at
the same rate as if there was no wind and the temperature was -30. But the
flesh will not go below 5f. If it tried to go below 5f, then the Wind Chill
Factor would be the
Wind Heating factor. |
Calif
Feb 9
|
| Sigh, you do realize he will never understand it. |
Reginald
Feb 9
|
| I'll buy that. Eisboch |
Eisboch
Feb 9
|
| I did get an A in Thermodynamics! |
Calif
Feb 9
|
| That's pretty good. In my humble opinion thermodynamics and fluid flow are
among, if not the most, challenging engineering disciplines to master and
apply. That's why I stuck with simple stuff like electronics. I struggled
with Ohm's Law. Eisboch |
Eisboch
Feb 9
|
| Who the hell knows. The tank isn't in plain sight. It's below a bunch of
other crap, and only the spout comes to the top of the engine compartment.
So, it's far from any heat source. And, the entire bottom of the truck is
encrusted with frozen crud. I'll deal with it when I get tires next week.
Have it washed, go straight to the mechanic's, figure it out there. Bring
some name brand fluid (ha ha), drain the tank, start from scratch. Good mechanic. He likes customers in the shop, as long as talk about fishing
and don't get in his way. |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| Pour some rubbing alcohol in it. won't hurt a thing |
Tim
Feb 8
|
| Let me know when the starter takes a dump, boss. you only have a few more thousand to go. Alternator will quit about
130,000. +/- that is if you keep it that long.. |
Tim
Feb 8
|
| Hey guys. Lets get serious. I need help. I've been trying to wind chill a
beer for several days now. So far I haven't been able to reduce the brew's
temp. below ambient, no matter how many fans I have blowing on it. I even
tried to spritz it with water. Nothing I've tried works. I thought you guys
were on to something with this wind chill theory, but alas, it's just a
bunch of hot air.
Jim |
Jim
Feb 8
|
| The powerstroke engines, with a block heater equiped are usually on |
Tim
Feb 8
|
| Buy yourself a vacuum chamber. I probably could arrange a modest discount. Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| Just what I need. An Electrolux on steroids. ;-)
Jim |
Jim
Feb 8
|
| And a 3-phase, 60 kva electrical service in your garage to run it. You
could probably tap it off your RV service. Rev. Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| Swing by the dealer and see if you can find out the proper freeze plug size.
Then check JC Whitney and see if they have the proper size. Just pop out
the center freeze plug, install the heater and you are done. I have the
same type of heater in both of my diesels and they crank right up and give
you almost immediate heat. mark |
r_d
Feb 8
|
| Mythbusters on cooling a 6 pack of beer: http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/03/mythbusters_cooling_a_sixpack.html |
JimH
Feb 8
|
| Past girlfriend.... ....never mind. |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| You mean a bagpipe? |
Tim
Feb 8
|
| Dip it in Freon Cleaning solvent (not available anymore to the public) and
in 70 degree day the evaporation will cause frost. |
Calif
Feb 9
|
| Did not realize it applied only to human tissue. Thought it was just a rate
of heat transfer regards air movement. |
Calif
Feb 9
|
| According to the definition, correct. But wind chill effect is also found
on beer cans, etc. a breeze at 15 knots and 34 degrees will cool the beer a
lot faster than just putting the beer in a 15 degree enviroment. |
Calif
Feb 9
|
| Ummmmmmm.yeah....sure. But I prefer the mythbusters
method.http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/03/mythbusters_cooling_a_sixpack.html |
JimH
Feb 8
|
| Glad to see you finally got it. :-) |
JimH
Feb 8
|
| actually is the same whether it is tissue or beer cans. |
Calif
Feb 9
|
| <sigh> |
JimH
Feb 8
|
| Sigh my ass. The reason there is a Wind Chill factor is the wind will carry
away the extra BTU's that still air can not. The body's response is that
it tries to get to the ambient temperature faster. At the same speed as if
the air was xx degrees colder. The Wind Chill factor. Same reason that RCE
stated that turbulent flow will transfer more heat. Laminar flow will have
a small slow speed component of air right next to the surface. That small
bit of air will insulate the surface from the air above. Works with beer
cans also. Same reason that a car radiator works with air flowing over it.
No fan and hot day and sitting still and you overheat. |
Calif
Feb 9
|
| I agree with everything you posted, including tissue or beer cans, except
the effect is not "wind chill". In moving air the tissue and beer can, if
warmer or colder than the ambient temperature will cool or warm faster to
the ambient temperature than in still air. Wind chill is the apparent lower temperature (than ambient) that living
tissue experiences due to it's inability to keep up with the increased heat
loss in windy conditions. It is equal to that temperature the tissue would
be exposed to if there was no wind. And with that, I am done with this wind chill discussion. It's leaving me
cold. Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 9
|
| No becasue it's enclosed and will only be affected by ambient
temperature inside the engine compartment. |
Short
Feb 8
|
| What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it below
the ambient temperature. The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and
heat is given off. Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. Eisboch |
Eisboch
Feb 8
|
| We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on
this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally
have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to
pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher
temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the
windshield? Since this phenomenon actually occurs, please base your next response on
that reality. Possible responses:
- "I don't know".
- "Here's why:...."
- "I'm posting a non-answer because I have nothing better to do". |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| All the above. The answer is blowing in the wind. Actually, it's because
the windshield is cold enough to selectively freeze the H20 content of the
"antifreeze". If you notice ... the wind does not even have to be blowing
in order to freeze a film on the windshield if you use the fluid and wipers
before the defroster starts to warm up the windshield. I am focusing on wind chill because in your original post you confused wind
chill as being a factor of the temperature of a non-living object. It
isn't. Eisboch |
Eisboch
Feb 8
|
| Actually, I think what I just said is incorrect. The freezing film you see
develop is water vapor in the air condensing and freezing on the cold
windshield. If you notice, the next squirt of washer fluid melts it, then
it occurs again and again until the windshield warms up. Eisboch |
Eisboch
Feb 8
|
| Hmmmmm |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| Add that the "glass" is actually layered and you have a more
interesting
problem in that the inside of the glass is warmer than the outside
of the glass which causes more condensation in freezing conditions
and creates that "frosted" look and more use of that blue/pink stuff. I just did an experiment because I was bored this morning. I
took two 12 inch dinner plates, placed one in the garage away
from the wind and one in a shady area exposed to the wind.
I placed an equal amount of tap water in each plate and waited
to see which froze first. The freezing of each took the same amount of time. So, there is the experiment. |
Short
Feb 8
|
| Eisboch has it right - it's condensate that freezes, not the actual
washer fluid. Ehen you clear the wind screen with fluid on a cold morning, the
frost will disappear until the latent vapor in the atmosphere
re-freezes - that continues until two things happen - you warm up
the wind screen sufficiently to keep the vapor from freezing or until
you are moving fast enough for the vapor to be disappated (sp?)
before it has a chance to freeze. |
Short
Feb 8
|
| Answered further on down. |
Short
Feb 8
|
| Just e-mailed this question to my kid's physics teacher, who's always up for
a challenge. We'll see what he says. The condensate idea sounds plausible,
though. |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| Wind Chill. I do not think it refers to living tissue. I think the
definition is how much heat transfer would occur in still air vs. Moving
air. some low speed of air. -15 degrees with a wind chill of -30, says the
same heat loss would occur if the temp was -30 and no wind movement.
Nothing to do with evaporation but with the tendency of the air to heat up
near the warmer object, slowing down heat transfer. |
Calif
Feb 8
|
| should not freeze at the 5F. But there will be some cooling via evaporation
but that is not "wind chill". |
Calif
Feb 8
|
| :>
:> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
:> news:XvFyh.2301$ya1.1476@news02.roc.ny...
:>
:>>
:>> What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions?
:>>
:>
:> Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it
:> below the ambient temperature.
:>
:> The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and
:> heat is given off.
:>
:> Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue.
:>
:> Eisboch
:> :We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on
:this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally
:have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to
:pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher
:temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the
:windshield? Evaporation drives this. Evaporation cools things off; it can cool
things off below ambient temperature, despite multiple people in this
thread saying it can't. Think about how an evaporative cooler works,
or why an alcohol wipe is cool.
Increasing the surface area increases the rate of evaporation. A film
smeared across your windshield by the frozen wipers will evaporate
quickly, leaving a nice thin sheet of ice. Wind, real or apparent
from the car's motion, also increase the rate of evaporation. I also
expect that the alcohol in the solvent evaporates more quickly than
the water, so the ice on the window is mostly water. |
David
Feb 8
|
| The term "Wind Chill" applies *only* to living tissue. It refers to the
rate of cooling (limited by the ambient temperature) that occurs to exposed
living tissue. The increased rate of cooling can exceed the living tissue's
ability to replace the heat lost and things like frostbite can quickly
occur. The wind can't make it colder. It only makes the rate of heat transfer and
cooling of the object faster. Heat transfer is higher in turbulent flow. Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| This is funny. A whole bunch of experts explaining 9th grade physics. Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| It is something that *only* living tissue can experience. |
JimH
Feb 8
|
| To add: If it is 20 degrees outside and the wind is howling, producing a "wind
chill" of -10 degrees,
it is equivalent to subjecting exposed tissue to -10 degrees. It's still
20 degrees, ambient. Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| Of course. The alcohol gone - water remaining & freezing idea seems the most plausible
at this point. |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| Water and water vapor is an interesting and complex subject. I spent the
better part of my career dealing with their effects and properties in
reduced pressure (vacuum chambers) vessels. Water vapor does not follow
natural gas laws and is the bane of those of us trying to create high vacuum
environments (equal to 200-300 miles in space) here on earth. Place a cup of water in a large vacuum system and begin to remove the air,
reducing the atmospheric pressure. The water will quickly freeze at the
reduced pressure. Continue to reduce the pressure and the block of ice will
suddenly start to rapidly boil ... in the blink of an eye. Continue to
reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate
(goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). It also has weird properties when it condenses. Picture a snowflake with
all of it's points. Each point becomes a nucleation site for the next bit
of water vapor. Enough of them and they form an insulating lay whereby no
further nucleation takes place. That's why you don't get 3 inches of frost
on your windshield. The process stops once the outer surface is insulated
sufficiently from the cold glass where the initial nucleation took place. Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| For a very few of us, 9th grade was well over 45 years ago. I enjoyed and
learned from this discussion. Remind me not to argue water vapor properties with you.
--
***** Have a super day! ***** John H |
JLH
Feb 8
|
| All of this happens at what range of temperatures? When you're reducing the
air pressure, the temp is remaining fairly constant? |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| I hate to end a very interesting discussion, but the definitive answer |
Reginald
Feb 8
|
| As the pressure is reduced, the only temperature left is that remaining in
the water, (aside from any radiant energy). As pressure is reduced, the
vapor pressure changes. Often, high intensity quartz lamps or UV emitters
are used to add energy to the remaining water molecules to excite them to a
state where they can be removed or captured by the vacuum pumps. Otherwise
they cling to the vacuum chamber walls and will slowly sublimate for hours
or days. Think of your car's radiator. The pressure cap allows the cooling system to
operate at a higher barometric pressure than at atmosphere, raising the
boiling point of water. The opposite happens in the vacuum chambers. To a
less obvious degree, the normal barometric pressure variations at atmosphere
affects dew points, etc. for a given temperature. BTW ... in my partial sentence quoted above about sublimation ... I meant to
say "goes from solid to vapor without becoming a liquid". Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| I prefer to call it a "discussion".
Except, I am right. :-) Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| One last article from the US govt. on wind chill and radiator freezing: 2. Can windchill impact my car's radiator or exposed water pipe? back A. The only effect windchill has on inanimate objects, such as car
radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the
object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air
temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees
Fahrenheit and the windchill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then
your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees Fahrenheit. http://www.weather.gov/os/windchill/windchillglossary.shtml |
Reginald
Feb 8
|
| Well anyway, it appears I've gone beyond my streak of good luck with
windshield fluid. 35 years of driving in frigid climates, and never a
problem until now, when I get not just one, but two products in a row made
by idiots or liars. The stuff's frozen in the tank, at 14 degrees F. |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| It's supposedly based on skin feel. Whose skin is up for debate.
There's a formula for it, but anybody who has spent time in the cold
knows that if the wind can make your nose freeze solid but if you
turn from the wind your nose is okay, the same procedure can apply
to your car's engine block when deciding whether it is best to park
facing the wind, or away from it.
Basically the term has been appropriated by weathermen to keep people
properly scared. Saw a map of temperatures the local joker put up
last night which gave me a momentary shock, until I realized it was
all wind chill temps. Yeah, like anybody knows how the winds are
blowing at these locations. It was inaccurate before it was posted.
As you said, it's all about heat transfer.
Just don't call it wind chill unless you're talking about human skin.
That's taken. Call it air chilled, then nobody can challenge you. --Vic |
Vic
Feb 8
|
| Well just think. Now, armed with your newly acquired knowledge, sue 'em! Eisboch |
RCE
Feb 8
|
| The supermarket's been informed. Knowing Wegman's, they'll pull it from the
shelves pretty quickly. |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| --Vic |
Vic
Feb 8
|
| I wonder if that might crack the tank, rupture the hoses, and fracture
the plastic spray nozzles as we speak. Nah. --Vic |
Vic
Feb 8
|
| That would be fun. |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 8
|
| What did you expect - this is Usenet. Everybody is an expert on everything. :>) |
Short
Feb 8
|
| I prefer to call it pizza. Then again, I'm a little weird. |
Short
Feb 8
|
| That's the third time in two days I've heard the term nucleation. That's the effect you get when you drop a Mentos into a bottle
of diet soda. Funny - I never looked at frost like that. |
Short
Feb 8
|
| Water at altitude boils at a lower temperature - makes sense to me. |
Short
Feb 8
|
| I wonder if you got some extraneous water in the fluid tank? |
Short
Feb 8
|
| What about aftermarket block heaters all the type that replace the dipstick?
Don't tell me google is my friend. I want you to do the work for me. :-) |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 7
|
| What would you look for that you don't have in the Navigator? If you really want a long range, go anywhere kind of boat, take a look
at the Nordhavns. Pricey, but first rate in every respect: http://www.nordhavn.com/55/overview.php4 What the heck, we only go around once, or so they say. I'd get one if I could afford it. |
Wayne.B
Feb 7
|
| Nice boats, weird web site. For the money they get for a boat like that,
you'd think they could come with something better than "Coming Soon" when
you click for details on their 86. :-) |
JoeSpareBedroom
Feb 7
|
| Funny you should mention them. There was one on the hard with a "For Sale"
sign on it about 3 years ago at the marina I am at. I often walked around
it, studying it and feeling that familiar urge starting to arise.
Fortunately for the wallet, the GB came along, Mrs.E. fell in love with it
at first glance and the rest is history. I forget what they were asking,
but it was out of my league. Eisboch |
Eisboch
Feb 7
|
