Homeowner's Associations suck!

I live in an apartment and store my 17' v-hull I/O runabout boat in a storage facility. Whenever I need to work on it, I go get the boat and bring it to her house for a day or two and work on it there...nothing major -- just routine stuff like winterizing, tuneups, and other minor repairs or modifications...it's not like I'm leaving a junky boat half torn apart in her driveway. All has been well with this situation for the past 3 years or so until now. A rep of the homeowner's association which regulates the neighborhood my girlfriend lives in called her today saying that the association regulations prohibit working on boats and that boats could be loaded or unloaded only on your property.

Where does one practically work on their boat if they cannot work on it at their house? I cannot afford to have someone do every little thing to my boat when it needs something done to it. Sure, I could probably get away with doing small things to it, but what about the other things like winterizing or getting it ready to go in the Spring? The way I see it, I am screwed and don't have much choice but to get rid of the boat. What a depressing thought that is, especially since it is a boat that has been in my family for 35 years, is running better than it ever has, not to mention how much enjoyment we get from it.

You are correct.

My point was that I didn't know why anybody would willing assent to such an agreement.

My point assumed that the grantee had done their homework and *knew* about the restrictive covenant(s). The paperwork I was thinking of that didn't have to be signed was the deed. As in, just walk away.... as SWS did in his instance.

The scary point, as you point out, is that an unwary grantee may unwittingly find themselves subject to these screwy agreements by not doing their homework.

In my state: one should NEVER buy anything without (1) a Title Search, (2) Title Insurance, AND (3) written assurances of clear title from a duly qualified and licensed real estate attorney. In my state, not even a Title Search guarantees clear title..... only an attorney can advise on the actual status of the title.

Personally, I'm amazed at the freedoms some people are willing to relinquish (for whatever reason) to make sure that other people behave in a particular way. I'm glad to see that you, an attorney, don't see these covenants as personally desirable....

Rick

Agreed.

And with the recent rulings that condemnation can be undertaken for the purpose of commercial gain and augmentation of the tax base.....

...... well, I'll just stop with saying, "That's just wrong."

Rick <aarrgghh!! ..... (back later, gone for a boat ride).

Now, now..... there IS a cure float the boat and leave the cares ashore!

I think you are dead on. I am a lawyer and I used to write CC&Rs for a living. When we wanted say driveway, we said driveway. The quoted CC&Rs only restrict repair on the streets. I wrote several CC&Rs (at the request of the developer) that said no repair in the driveway, only the garage. I think as long as you can do the repair within the 24 hour storage period, you're alright. The OP should point that out to the busy buddy and tell him or her to pound sand. BTW, because of my dealings with HOAs, I would never live in one. I've only been to New Hampshire once, but I like their motto: "Live free or die."

Most HOA would not worry if someone was working on a boat for a day, but if the boat was out in the street, or torn apart in the driveway or yard, they would enforce the covenants. That being said, they will be some HOA Nazi's, but if the homeowners don't like their enforcement style, they will vote them out quickly.

For what it is worth, most homes do have some restrictive covenants enforced by the local or county goverements (ie zoning, sanitary etc.)

Rick

During this experience I got so ticked off that I started reviewing some of the town ordinances. One, common to many towns, permits only one unregistered vehicle to be on any property. We happen to own three adjacent but irregularly shaped lots, all three of which meet at one point at the end of our driveway. I seriously considered purchasing three old, rusty "clunker" type cars and parking them next to each other where the lots meet, each on a separate lot, just to piss the town administrators off. My wife convinced me to be a little more rational.

Eisboch

Don't blame you for that.

My experience with that area is all old... thankfully. My aunt and uncle owned 13 acres in Lanham, which is certainly with an hours drive.... it was secluded by a deep woods and had deer, rabbits, squirrels, etc. on the property. They both were research scientists at the DoA and the landscaping on the property was varied and beautiful. I've spent many days on that property sitting against a tree next to the spring reading good books. It was a great place to spend time.

They sold in the early 90's.

I'm sure that property is now raped of trees and planted with cookie cutter tract homes ruled over by an HOA and all of the intrinsic citizen-enforcers that it inevitably creates.

The development(s) in that area are why I no longer have any interest in going back... other than, perhaps, a short trip to the museums, etc.

Do you have any points of interest in the Carolinas on your short list, yet?

As long as I stay within the Federal guidelines, I'm fine.

Association contracts are a bit sticker, but they have been successfully fought.

You are allowed to purchase your property, pay the taxes and the upkeep, but the town determines what you can do and not do with it for the most part.

Eisboch

Either I didn't make myself clear or you guys need to read again for content..... (1) I wouldn't buy a property that came with a deed restriction and (2) my position was that NO agreement is binding unless you sign indicating assent.

Check your mortgage paperwork and you will find that you have a copy of some sort of protective or restrictive covenant or CC&R, designed by the developer, that gave the HOA the power to tax you and determine how you will use your property. You will probably, also, find a rider on your deed that says you are aware of the covenant and will abide by its restrictions (which include all of its penalties). You signed all that didn't you?

I still feel that if you didn't sign the paperwork covering the deed restriction.... you are not bound by what you didn't agree to.... (of course that means you probably (wisely) walked away from the deal).

PS Reference #1 above: there are plenty of recorded cases where the HOA bankrupted landowners over some trivial item (though one agreed to). I just don't lean into left hooks when I can see them coming. I try not to sign optional documents that restrict my rights.....

Thank you. That was my point.

Nope. You miss the point. Wisest, IMHO, course is to walk away and look for a property that doesn't beg for civil litigation......

That is my comfort level. YMMV.

Sure there is! Look down and I'll bet you'll see a couple of shoes... which probably conceal feet. Use them and walk away from the excess restrictions on your freedom to use your property as you see fit... and away from the very real possibility of frivolous (or not) civil litigation.

You have choices. Make a bad one and your neighbors will make your decisions for you concerning what type of boat you can own, where you shall keep it, and how it will be maintained.

Maybe you are comfortable with that. I'm not.

All it took was one 'phone call from an attorney explaining the site process, the Federal rules regarding height/safety, etc., all of which I was well within the guidelines and the problem went away.

The BOZ then tried to pass a local ordinance requiring excessive safety requirements and they found themselves in a court suit from another ham in town which cost them a ton of money - poof - away went the ordinance.

In my case it wouldn't be much of a tower compared to what I had, but still....

Here's how you get yourself in deep doo-doo signing these covenants.

The FCC has an established policy of limited preemption of state and local regulations governing amateur station facilities..... protection from local laws that attempt to preempt Federal Statutes. However, when you sign a CC&R you have *agreed* to be limited by these covenants and the FCC isn't going to protect you from yourself.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=prb-1&id=amateur&page=4

Eisboch

The "emergency" clause refers to working on it in a "street", as might happen if the vehicle got a flat tire and moving it from the street to a private driveway was not practical without first effecting the repair.

Could it be argued that "any of the streets within this subdivision" includes private "driveways"? Possibly. It could also be argued that if the framers meant it to include driveways, they would have written "any of the streets or driveways within this subdivision."

I note there is no prohibition from storing or effecting non-emergency repair on a vehicle in a private yard. The framers could have easily foreseen such occurring and written a prohibition in the form of "nor may they be stored or repaired except in an emergency within said twenty-four (24) hour period on any of the streets, driveways or yards within this subdivision."

"Said twenty-four (24) hour period" sounds very official and scary but it merely refers again to the period that a vehicle may be "within view of the public street." It does not a priori mean that non- emergency repair cannot be performed on a private drive or yard.

On the whole, it seems to me that the framers most likely just wanted to keep the work out of the public streets (read: thoroughfares), and to keep it reasonably brief.

A private driveway is not typically considered to be as much a part of the "common space" as a public street. So there is ample reason to have a distinction between streets and driveways. Repairing a vehicle in the public street could be a problem if lots of people did it even for short periods. People don't tend to care as much what happens in a neighbor's driveway if it's temporary.

I am not a lawyer, but I have extensive experience interpreting zoning codes.

Rick

Hey, you were looking for something new to do. :>)

and (2) my position was that NO agreement is binding >unless you sign indicating assent.

A deed restriction can be binding and enforceable even if you didn't have a clue it existed. Hypothetical Example: A blacksmith in 1930, ticked off at the automobile boom, sells his shop and writes into the deed "this property shall never be used for the purpose of commercial gasoline sales". The property changes hands 10 times over the next 77 years with no further mention of that deed restriction. Then in 2007 an entrepreneur buys the property with plans to build a gas station. He's got a problem. That old deed restriction, that almost everybody has forgotten about, is still binding and enforceable. I've seen people spend more money in legal fees trying to get around something like that than they paid for the property to begin with. So you're right. If you don't like the restrictions, walk away from the deal. But you don't have to agree or even know about a deed restriction to make it enforcable. A Title Opinion by a good Abstractor or Lawyer, to find these things before you buy, can be worth it's weight in gold.

Rick

Lately, my time has been taken up giving Grand Banks tours. Lotsa keel kickers out there, but no buyers yet.

Eisboch

I am just tired of worrying about two of them.

Eisboch

Your suggestion to buy somewhere that doesn't have an HOA sounds really good, except that most people don't have the money to buy the kind of home they would REALLY like. In other words, not everyone is rich, or lives in an area that the housing cost are reasonable compared to wages. For us working folks, HOAs can be a necessary evil, if we want to buy SOME kind of home.

It must be nice to have lots of $$. It is unfortunate that for many, it really warps their comprehension of the reality of life for for regular working folks.

Folks purchasing houses in the developement are told up front of the Association and are given a copy of the bylaws.

I don't mind it. It helps ensure we don't get junk cars and trailers parked in driveways and eventually adds to the worth of my house.

BTW: I can work on or store my boat on the trailer in my driveway for 2 full weeks/year, which is reasonable.

Rick

Even if you don't sign it?

I'm sure they don't mind people washing or waxing their cars but they would bitch if they dropped the transmission for a repair.

Dan

:>Gene Kearns wrote: :>>My guess is that nothing is binding, if they didn't also assent to and :>>sign the restrictive covenants prior to purchase. :> :>I don't know about your state, but in mine it's as binding as any :>other deed restriction. And deed restrictions are very much binding. :> :>Rick

:Even if you don't sign it?

It's part of the deed. By purchasing the property, you're obligating yourself to follow them. There are exceptions, for instance, many properties contain restrictions prohibiting blacks, jews, or otherwise people the developer thought were "undesirable". These are unenforcable, and meaningless, but still exist on many properties. the other big exception is for radio and television antennas. The FCC has final say about rules for antennas, and generally, local laws, homeowner associations have to put up with them. There are exceptions for some safety issues, and for some historical districts.

Rick

Rick

We almost closed on a house. One of the conditions was no restrictions or "associations" or anything like that. I want to put up a tower for my radio hobby and I like to keep my trailer boats close to my residence.

As the paperwork was being passed around for signatures, the agent slipped in one that said "association dues" - I asked and yeppers - there was an association alright - very loosely worded constraints on what could and couldn't be done with the property.

No thank you.

Lawyers were po'd - not my fault - talk to the agent.

Loser.

--Vic

In article <fadean$duo$1@reader1.panix.com>, Bob <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: : :Yes, this post is on-topic. I just have to vent...thanks for :listening. : :I live in an apartment and store my 17' v-hull I/O runabout boat in a :storage facility. Whenever I need to work on it, I go get the boat and :bring it to her house for a day or two and work on it there...nothing :major -- just routine stuff like winterizing, tuneups, and other minor :repairs or modifications...it's not like I'm leaving a junky boat half :torn apart in her driveway. : :All has been well with this situation for the past 3 years or so until :now. A rep of the homeowner's association which regulates the :neighborhood my girlfriend lives in called her today saying that the :association regulations prohibit working on boats and that boats could :be loaded or unloaded only on your property. : :Where does one practically work on their boat if they cannot work on it :at their house? I cannot afford to have someone do every little thing :to my boat when it needs something done to it. Sure, I could probably :get away with doing small things to it, but what about the other things :like winterizing or getting it ready to go in the Spring? The way I :see it, I am screwed and don't have much choice but to get rid of the :boat. What a depressing thought that is, especially since it is a boat :that has been in my family for 35 years, is running better than it ever :has, not to mention how much enjoyment we get from it. : :

We use to keep out boat at a marina and they would conplain if we tried to wash it there. Luckly I could fit it in a car wash and spray it down and just polish it up at the marina. It ws still a pain, but doable.

I how you find a answer.

Capt Jack R..

But don't sell the boat. There's bound to be another way.

Rick

I agree Rick...hate to see my GF have to go to court to keep her house because of me.

Here are her HOA CC&Rs with regards to this:

"No boats, trucks, automobiles, or other vehicles, or trailers may be stored in the open within view of the public street within this subdivision for more than twenty-four (24) hours, nor may they be repaired except in an emergency within said twenty-four (24) hour period on any of the streets within this subdivision."

To me, this technically sounds like you could work on your boat in the DRIVEWAY as long as it was an "emergency" AND you did it within the 24 hour period. But I get the feeling that they mean "within view" like they mention in the first part talking about storage.

And there's another thing. We need to talk. This girlfriend thing can get to be very slippery slope. First, she goes to bat for you, next she drops a hint that it's no problem cuz soon you'll be living there too, then she starts expecting a rock on her finger, you get the picture. I'm tellin' ya man, the fairer sex can be veeeeery tricky. I haven't remained a bachelor lo these many years without learnin' at thing or two ;-) Join a Yacht Club and use their facilities for boat maintenance.

Rick

LOL. I think I'm OK on that front -- I've also managed to remain a bachelor for all my 52 years, but I appreciate the words of wisdom none the less! :-)

Will have to check into the Yach Club thing but I'm thinking that might be pretty expensive and not very convenient since the nearest yacht club is quite a ways away. I think I'll scale back doing any maintenance or work at the house which requires I start the boat on the trailer and instead haul it over to my cousin's place about a 1/2 hour drive away or just wait to do those things just before launch and/or on the water. F 'em if they want to get on us for me doing other little things while it's parked in her driveway during the "24 hour storage period".

If she lives in a "controlled" neighborhood, you may be dinked....if she owns the house...tell him to stick his finger up his ass, pull it out and smell it...then he'll know how full of shit he is.

......sorry....I had to vent.

If you're talking about working on the boat for a few hours on a single day, I don't think the association can do squat. If you're leaving the boat in her driveway for several days at a time, then you may be in violation. In any case, the association must notify you, in writing, of the rule violation. If your boat is in and out in one day, it will be gone by the time the association writes anything.

From a former HOA VP.

It sounds like some people have garages they could move boats into - otherwise, what sense would "view of public street" mean? And who gets to say what a "repair" is? Cleaning wouldn't be repair. Adding a bit of electronics? My point was - the original description said "loading and unloading" when the document says something else. There may not be a loophole big enough to work on your boat for 2 days, but its bigger than the weenie was saying.

Rick