O.T. a little - "Worms On A Hook Don't Suffer?"

OSLO (Reuters) - Worms squirming on a fishhook feel no pain -- nor do lobsters and crabs cooked in boiling water, a scientific study funded by the Norwegian government has found.

"The common earthworm has a very simple nervous system -- it can be cut in two and continue with its business," Professor Wenche Farstad, who chaired the panel that drew up the report, said Monday.

Norway might have considered banning the use of live worms as fish bait if the study had found they felt pain, but Farstad said "It seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook ... They might sense something, but it is not painful and does not compromise their well-being."

The government called for the study on pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates to help in the planned revision of Norway's animal protection law. Invertebrates cover a range of creatures from insects and spiders to mollusks and crustaceans.

Farstad said most invertebrates, including lobsters and crabs boiled alive, do not feel pain because, unlike mammals, they do not have a big brain to read the signals.

Some more advanced kinds of insects, such as honeybees which display social behavior and a capacity to learn and cooperate, deserve special care, she said.

"We have particular responsibility for animals that we have in our custody. That is not a scientific opinion, but the ethical side of the issue," Farstad said.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=7557037&src=rss/oddlyEnoughNews

 John

Guy A Ripley, TN

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thanks--but I followed the link to Reuters, read the article, and it does not give a date for the Farstad report itself. Feb.7 is only the date of the Reuters article. It appears that Reuters dropped the journalistic ball here! Guy A Ripley, TN =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Guy, it was interesting for me also, so I did a google search on "Wenche Farstad....Sentience and pain in invertebrates". Sorry, I couldn't copy the link...webtv thing :). But should be easy to find. John K

HORSE CAH CAH ! ! !

+ plus ya ever heard them lobsters screaming in a boiling pot ? I'd bet they aint callin for a pizza !

I think the distinction being made in the research is "pain" versus "any reflex to stimuli that humans normally associate with pain."

The argument PETA and their ilk advance to oppose sport fishing (and, eventually, the killing of any animal) has been this: when we cause needless pain (to fish or bait), we become cruel, brutalizing our victims and in doing so debasing ourselves. This research was cited on cable TV yesterday as scientific evidence that undermines PETA's position. The conclusion to sportsfishermen is, if our bait and the fish we catch are incapable of "pain awareness," then there's no problem with damaging them.

Even if that is true, I doubt it will make any impact on people who oppose fishing. Regardless of whether the worm or crawdad feels pain as it's impaled on a hook, a child who hooks the bait associates his own concept of pain with his actions, and he attributes to the writhing animal his own pain response. To proceed and repeat the bait-hooking performance, he must harden or desensitize himself to causing pain in another creature -- whether or not pain is actually being caused. Eventually, PETA posits, that lesson in how to turn off "caring about the pain of others" can grow to the ability to desensitize ourselves against the pain we cause in animals that do feel pain and also in people.

Ultimately, there's no end to PETA's campaign. Since their argument about harming other living organisms is based on perception and not reality, they start with the low-hanging fruit (hurting animals for sport), and move to more controversial targets (hurting animals for utilitarian reasons, like meat, hides, horns, and hooves). If somehow they were to achieve their goal of eliminating killing all animals (an impossible dream), it would not be the end, for it has long been known that plants respond to stimuli, silently "screaming" as brine shrimp are dumped to their deaths into a nearby pot of boiling water, or as their own leaves or stems are clipped off. PETA would just morph itself into PETL -- People for the Ethical Treatment of Life -- or something like that.

Joe _________________________

Not that the critters aren't being harmed, but that they "Joshuall" <Joshuall@comcast.net> wrote in message news:dKGdnWrWSNlayJXfRVn-1w@comcast.com... Now John.. I hardly ever swear in print . . . but all ya gotta do is look at a worm on a hook lol lol. . . . . .. three words about this report

HORSE CAH CAH ! ! !

+ plus ya ever heard them lobsters screaming in a boiling pot ? I'd bet they aint callin for a pizza !

For years "experts" have been telling us if we cut the line when we gut hook a fish the hook will rust out in a few days or weeks or months. Remember that mularky? Now we all know that's a load of crap and studies proved it. But it made us all feel better about one of the simple downside risks to fishing e.g. a few fish will pass on to the big pond in the sky.

Now some study someplace by some other "expert" has come up with another theory. Just because an animals brain is small doesn't mean he can't feel pain. Who says so ? Anybody ask him? Throw any living creature's ass ina boiling pot of water or stick a spear through it several times and tell them it dont hurt ! Baloney. This is just a matter of common sense not science. Remember boys . . . science brought us the famous "The Earth's Flat so beware of how far from Rome you plan your vacation" And . . ."Sun . .. we don't need no stinkin Sun...WE'RE the center of the universe" Who needs this kind of nonsense to overt any guilt trip or ward off any fear of Peta ?

Speaking of Peta. Well it's obvious they're a bunch of radical block heads who will have as much effect on our sport as a fly on a cows ass (and remember cows don't swat at every one of them that lands there) Again common sense . . . How much revenue is generated by this industry in the course of a year (just in this country)? Over a Billion a year in Illinois alone and we're not anywhere near the top of that list. How many jobs depend on the sport fishing industry. . . think about it. Boats, tackle , tourism etc etc. Does anyone really think congress or any other state legislature will give a white rats butt if a skewered worm can feel it ? Just a bunch of hooey in my book. Peta is just the cause de jour as far as I'm concerned and hardly worth the taps on these keyes when it comes to the issue of sports fishing.

Causing pain is a downside of the sport. Sometimes fish get foul hooked, sometimes anglers get hooked, sometimes people fall out of their boats. The question is does the downside outweigh the upside and I'm bettin all of us here are gonna say no. So. . . fish with lures, don't foul hook and stay away from seafood dammit. <g>

p.s. Does anyone know of a study vis a vis if you throw a peta member in a pot of boiling water what will happen?

God Bless America

Josh The Bad Bear

My grandson's teacher when he was 7/8 years old was teaching her students that catching fish on a hook was painful to them. Even spouted and handed out Peta based info on it. It took me two years of careful explaining about the difference between bad science that explains only what the person wants it to and good science that looks at all facets and finds explinations through peer reviewed research. Just think about it for a minute. Your kids believe everything teachers say because we stress how important it is to get a good education and learn as much as possible. Now let a Peta person turn your childs view to theirs and before you know it, especially if you do not hunt or fish, and you have an "anti" person aligning with Peta or some such other group.

Don't ever underestimate the anti's. they are well orginized and well funded. Our best ammo against them is to take a kid fishing and explain everything to them correctly. If your kids are grown or you do not have any, pick a different neighbor kid every two weeks or so over the summer and teach them how to fish. It could go a long way to help save your sport!!!

danl4x@charter.net Remove the x for e-mail reply www.outdoorfrontiers.com www.SecretWeaponLures.com

Joe,

I make most my living stringing words together in a manner designed to illuminate and illustrate a given topic. Toward that end I read a lot of what others write in the non-fiction, educational, reportorial and editorial disciplines. Rarely have I run across anything as succinct, well constructed, accurate and illustrative as your words here.

KUDOS!

The vernal pool defenders won out, and my clients had a mud hole in the middle of their property that was protected by ordinance! But every spring when the county sprayed for mosquitoes, they sprayed that mud hole...killing any "species" that the vernal pool ordinance was designed to protect. After years of doing battle, the owners were finally allowed to grade the property and build on it...eliminating the sacred, mosquitoe infested mud hole!

Too much knowledge in the wrong "brains" is a dangerous thing!

JK

Joe

"RichZ" <remove_the_obvious_fin-sfish@charter.net> wrote in message news:vRbOd.13203$ba6.4097@fe03.lga... Joe Haubenreich wrote: >> a whole bunch of stuff about the 'logic' that drives the animal rights movement.

Joe,

I make most my living stringing words together in a manner designed to illuminate and illustrate a given topic. Toward that end I read a lot of what others write in the non-fiction, educational, reportorial and editorial disciplines. Rarely have I run across anything as succinct, well constructed, accurate and illustrative as your words here.

KUDOS!